I managed Bob for several months shortly after he came to NYC, and we were friends for several years; I managed other folk singers and was part of that Greenwich Village folk music world throughout the '60s, and was at Newport in 1965. I wrote about some of it in my book, "My Greenwich Village: Dave, Bob and Me," published last year. Suze and I were close friends from the time she met Bob until she died. She was totally unlike the wimpy person portrayed in the movie. Nor was there a romantic triangle among Bob, Suze and Joan. While movie producers often create arcs to move their products along, I believe revising someone's personality and changing their life to suit your commercial purposes is a more-than-objectionable thing to do.
Great to hear from you. I read your book and loved it, and meant to both quote from and acknowledge it in the post. But my brain was frazzled by the time I posted. I’m going to add something today. And definitely will listen to your podcast!!
Great to have your first hand knowledge and critique...Do you think Suze had a big influence on Bob's writing and helped educate educate him in art/literature/poetry?
Yes. I don't know how much anyone in particular influenced his writing, which changed at an astronomical pace. But while Bob certainly was literate, his background in those areas was very limited. Suze, although young, came from a family that was grounded in the arts, studied art, and eventually wound up doing book art...making minature books.
I agree that the women parts were not flattering at all, even annoying. The film did capture petulant Dylan at times. Chalamet was good depicting Dylan, his singing and musicianship mimicking Dylan was amazing skill. I thought Edward Norton as Pete Seeger stood out spectacularly. But the women plots were terrible, and the acting, probably given the script and direction, was very disappointing. Thank you for this detailed portrait of the real Suze Rotolo, it certainly adds reality to the Dylan biopic. Dylan's devotion to her proxy in the film was not depicted so passionately. The women in the film did show clearly their secondary status to the men, despite fame and intimacy. Except for Seeger's wife, who was very strong.
I saw Dylan numerous times in the 1960s-80s; I lived in the SF Bay Area and had great opportunity to see him. I believe he is the greatest poet of my lifetime. Personally, from reading about him a lot, he seemed prickly and humorous all at once. Complicated, as all of us are.
I agree completely about Chalamet and Norton. They were spectacular, and if I’d been doing a regular review I would have talked about that. I also agree about Dylan as a poet/songwriter. (I also saw him several times in the sixties—once very early on, in Newark, NJ.) And about his complicated nature. I had some ambivalence about not going into any of that in my piece, which perhaps gives the impression that I didn’t like the movie or Dylan himself, when that’s far from the truth. But in the end I felt that enough had already been written in praise of the movie and in adoration of Dylan, and I didn’t want to distract from what I wanted to add to the picture. Thanks so much for your comment!
I understand you appreciated the film, and wanted to concentrate on the women's portrayals. You write so well about our point of view, thank you! Standard reviews are useful, and more nuanced ones like this essay are welcomed for fleshing out the narratives advanced in the movie. Hurrah for having similar experiences and thoughts re: Dylan. Shared kindred experiences are so fun!
Hey, Susan. Great job. I never met Suze, as she was part of Dylan’s NYC life, and I was in Cambridge, and saw the Joanie part. However, your description of the folk music groupies as chicks, there to prop up their creative genius musicians, rings true. I spent a week in the care and feeding and bed of Dick Farina in Paris, as he worked on his novel, Been Down so Long It Looks Like Up to Me. He’d rip each page out of the typewriter and pass it to me for my admiration, then send me out for food and wine, which I was proud to fetch. Then Mimi arrived—a prior commitment that blindsided me—and she took over the care and feeding and bed of the charming genius. I always wondered how long their relationship would have lasted if he hadn’t died in a motorcycle accident right after the book came out because she was no fool.
Thank you for this. I had read a publishers manuscript of her book and I remembered there had been a difference in what she said. I am a big fan of early Dylan as his messages were powerful (and as he says, he didn't write this, it was 'an angel' the wellspring of all inspiration, or as I know my own process to be, the Muse. But I've been in enough relationships with guys who weren't artists to know that patriarchal training was everywhere and it was a very lucky woman who found someone who truly loved and treated her as an equal.
Thank you Susan. 76 here, grew up in NYC, took the subway in to see the folk singers in Washington Square while in high school, and went to NYU...yes you and I know those times quite intimately and how much our generation accomplished, too, in getting the rights for women and other groups, some of which are now being threatened.
Fascinating article, need to and will read Suze’s book… the article reminds me that men, the behavior of most/all men of the 60s is what gave rise to the 70s Women’s Movement. I remember when I came awake and alive. The 60s were my intro to music decade
I enjoyed the movie, also frustrated by the Sylvie character, felt cheated by the Joan character. Now I know why. Timothee did a great job as Bob and am going back to reread your article. Thanks for sharing it all. Will there be a part 2?
This is great, Susan - it nails my conflicting responses to the movie: I loved it because of the music, and I’m glad the music is front and center. I thought I’d hate the movie because of the way the women were misused as narrative devices (that felt obvious after seeing the trailer), but I decided to go with the emotional flow when in the theater - and was surprised by how much the music evoked my father, who loved Dylan’s music and played it all the time when I was a kid. “Boots of Spanish Leather” was a particular favorite of his.
But even feeling exhilarated in the theater, I knew the Sylvie character was sheer invention. All the scenes with Elle Fanning, especially the bullshit one of her hopping the motorcycle to Newport (that’s when I chose to take a restroom break, but still saw too much of the eye-rolling goodbye at the ferry) were thin, my disbelief no longer suspended.
This movie also made me think of Cameron Crowe’s “Almost Famous,” in which the fictionalized groupies of the ‘70s at least get more of a voice. I am very tired of the male genius trope. Mangold’s movie would have been much better if he really had showed the sexism underpinning Dylan’s story. It’s possible to feel many things about art and an artist, and the reality is they aren’t heroes.
A lot of people on the Dylan fan page were angry with me, and a frequent complaint was “this was a movie about Dylan, not Suze Rotolo”! The don’t seem to realize that “she” WAS in it even if not the main character, and it would have been pretty easy to depict her more accurately. They got Pete Seeger pretty well, didn’t they? The sexism of the times, too, could have been alluded to. It didn’t have to be the central focus of the movie in order to be part of the “texture” of the times. A truly great director could have made it happen. That said, I also loved the movie!! The music totally!! Chalomet was brilliant, not just the singing, but he captured the push/pull of Dylan’s sweetness and nastiness really well. And Norton—terrific.
It’s said that we’ll know equality has arrived when a mediocre woman can do just as well as a mediocre man. That will be a start, but when will a self-obsessed female genius and world-class user get the same adulation as Dylan (to which I contribute in my fashion)?
I agree. Without saying exactly those words, I tried to suggest that he chose the portrait of Suze that made him look the way he wanted to be seen. Hope that came across!
Well, almost all men are assholes, especially probably male artists, but then most women aren’t the saints we might wish they were either . . . except for mine. She’s only practically perfect probably, but she IS a saint to my sometimes jerk. I can’t help it if I’m lucky.
Your wife/partner is lucky too. You know, I don’t really think all men are assholes. I don’t even think Dylan was an asshole. Certainly not compared to the current crop of assholes!! If I had to tell my story of Dylan (rather than revive Suze), It would probably surprise a lot of people who read this piece.
Fascinating and convincing, Susan. I wish this piece were longer (something I rarely say). I haven’t read Suze’s book, only interviews, yet it’s striking how affectionately both she and Joan speak of Bob—a childlike and oddly endearing asshole. Having rewatched Don’t Look Back a few days ago, I can well believe he threw tantrums with women, yet he had an extraordinary power to attract and keep (for a while) women of substance. I am writing my own very different essay now, a personal take, and will link to yours.
As I said in a couple of other comments, I also wish I could have gone longer. There’s so much more to say about the times, about “those” guys, about my generation of women (I think you’re a little younger, but I may be wrong. I’m 77.) I look forward to yours, and will link to it when it’s published.
I don’t even use substack, but I had to comment. I’m a younger Dylan fan, and this piece helped me to put words to some of the reservations that I had about A Complete Unknown and Bob Dylan himself. I’m a woman and consider myself a feminist, and so the cult of male genius has always annoyed me. This piece is the perfect antithesis to those ideas. Thank you, Susan!!
“Bob was charismatic; he was a beacon, a lighthouse. He was also a black hole. He required committed backup and protection I was unable to provide consistently, probably because I needed them myself. I loved him, but I was not able to abdicate my life totally for the music world he lived within.”
I thought of this powerful essay by a woman who had been engaged to David Foster Wallace and also has interesting things to say about being involved with a man who is egotistical and artistically successful: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/gale-walden/diary
"He ended up being a surprise. He was wicked funny, for one thing. He was someone I could talk to for hours, and through the years, in different houses, in different states, we did just that. On the phone late at night, he’d say, ‘My ear is getting hot,’ and I knew what he meant because my ear too, pressed against the phone, would be slightly warm and red. I don’t remember exactly what we talked about, just that it was never boring. My big fear in life, at that time, was being bored. Later I would learn that there are worse things to fear."
I wish that I’d had the space to discuss the vexing charm of these kind of guys. I was in love with someone like that myself—although not famous, he embodied the humor, rebelliousness, unexpected sweetness, and not unexpected egotism of the famous guys who he emulated. And he was never boring!! There’s so much to say that I didn’t say, given the constraints of a stack. (I’ve found that not that many people have the patience for long stacks.) I’m glad you did!!
I have to leave another comment after reading all of these remarks I live those errors I graduated from Colorado University in Boulder in 1962. I had mentioned earlier that I lived these years. I dated too many men because we dated back then that were very much like him. A couple of them went on to be really famous not in the arts per se but in other areas, I do think when we look back on those times and write about them, we are affected by what we believe and feel now as women I was a young naïve coed. I liked the boys . An earlier response as I said, I’ve seen this movie twice and I don’t mind the way they did the women it was about Bob Dylan. I am interested in learning more about him and his relationships but I can certainly remember the type of man. I love the movie and nothing is perfect, but I think it was generally portrayed well and Timothée Chalamet became Bob Dylan in my mind. I’m gonna go see it again.
Don’t get me wrong—I was totally into the boys, too. And I loved the movie. Chalamet was great, even though so much cuter than Dylan was. I just believe in always bringing out in the open what has been submerged.
Thanks Susan. Very interesting. Interesting how the consequence of Dylan’s request is putting Suze even more in the spotlight…
Nothing stays submerged forever. Let’s hope!! (In terms of our current political situation.)
I managed Bob for several months shortly after he came to NYC, and we were friends for several years; I managed other folk singers and was part of that Greenwich Village folk music world throughout the '60s, and was at Newport in 1965. I wrote about some of it in my book, "My Greenwich Village: Dave, Bob and Me," published last year. Suze and I were close friends from the time she met Bob until she died. She was totally unlike the wimpy person portrayed in the movie. Nor was there a romantic triangle among Bob, Suze and Joan. While movie producers often create arcs to move their products along, I believe revising someone's personality and changing their life to suit your commercial purposes is a more-than-objectionable thing to do.
I talk about that and the movie's erasure of Dave Van Ronk, a folk singer friend of and influence on Bob in the early-to-mid-60s, whom I managed (and also was married to and remained a lifelong friend of) in a podcast: https://hudsonriverradio.com/being-frank.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawHuCs9leHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHSciSqQwVu8wdCelEzvz0Rm5fNylQjczUmDkSTQIOcqKzPu9hbaxrUtCkQ_aem_EKn8vU2HopU-4Jykb14dIg
Great to hear from you. I read your book and loved it, and meant to both quote from and acknowledge it in the post. But my brain was frazzled by the time I posted. I’m going to add something today. And definitely will listen to your podcast!!
I'm glad I found your site.
I can subscribe you for free if you send me your email. Or you can do it yourself. There’s lots of stuff there that I think you’ll enjoy.
thal.terri@gmail.com I'd like that.
Great to have your first hand knowledge and critique...Do you think Suze had a big influence on Bob's writing and helped educate educate him in art/literature/poetry?
Yes. I don't know how much anyone in particular influenced his writing, which changed at an astronomical pace. But while Bob certainly was literate, his background in those areas was very limited. Suze, although young, came from a family that was grounded in the arts, studied art, and eventually wound up doing book art...making minature books.
Thanks for adding this comment, which validates so much.
I agree that the women parts were not flattering at all, even annoying. The film did capture petulant Dylan at times. Chalamet was good depicting Dylan, his singing and musicianship mimicking Dylan was amazing skill. I thought Edward Norton as Pete Seeger stood out spectacularly. But the women plots were terrible, and the acting, probably given the script and direction, was very disappointing. Thank you for this detailed portrait of the real Suze Rotolo, it certainly adds reality to the Dylan biopic. Dylan's devotion to her proxy in the film was not depicted so passionately. The women in the film did show clearly their secondary status to the men, despite fame and intimacy. Except for Seeger's wife, who was very strong.
I saw Dylan numerous times in the 1960s-80s; I lived in the SF Bay Area and had great opportunity to see him. I believe he is the greatest poet of my lifetime. Personally, from reading about him a lot, he seemed prickly and humorous all at once. Complicated, as all of us are.
I agree completely about Chalamet and Norton. They were spectacular, and if I’d been doing a regular review I would have talked about that. I also agree about Dylan as a poet/songwriter. (I also saw him several times in the sixties—once very early on, in Newark, NJ.) And about his complicated nature. I had some ambivalence about not going into any of that in my piece, which perhaps gives the impression that I didn’t like the movie or Dylan himself, when that’s far from the truth. But in the end I felt that enough had already been written in praise of the movie and in adoration of Dylan, and I didn’t want to distract from what I wanted to add to the picture. Thanks so much for your comment!
I understand you appreciated the film, and wanted to concentrate on the women's portrayals. You write so well about our point of view, thank you! Standard reviews are useful, and more nuanced ones like this essay are welcomed for fleshing out the narratives advanced in the movie. Hurrah for having similar experiences and thoughts re: Dylan. Shared kindred experiences are so fun!
Thank you!
Hey, Susan. Great job. I never met Suze, as she was part of Dylan’s NYC life, and I was in Cambridge, and saw the Joanie part. However, your description of the folk music groupies as chicks, there to prop up their creative genius musicians, rings true. I spent a week in the care and feeding and bed of Dick Farina in Paris, as he worked on his novel, Been Down so Long It Looks Like Up to Me. He’d rip each page out of the typewriter and pass it to me for my admiration, then send me out for food and wine, which I was proud to fetch. Then Mimi arrived—a prior commitment that blindsided me—and she took over the care and feeding and bed of the charming genius. I always wondered how long their relationship would have lasted if he hadn’t died in a motorcycle accident right after the book came out because she was no fool.
Joy, you have to put all this in a stack of your own!! Or would you like to be a guest in mine? Either way, your story needs to be told.
I should and would, but it’s a back burner project at the moment— lots else occupying my mind and time.
Yes, I suspect a movie labeled as being about a co-dependent man baby whose better half wants independence wouldn’t be quite as lucrative. 😂
I want a laughing Memoji here.
Thank you for this. I had read a publishers manuscript of her book and I remembered there had been a difference in what she said. I am a big fan of early Dylan as his messages were powerful (and as he says, he didn't write this, it was 'an angel' the wellspring of all inspiration, or as I know my own process to be, the Muse. But I've been in enough relationships with guys who weren't artists to know that patriarchal training was everywhere and it was a very lucky woman who found someone who truly loved and treated her as an equal.
You can say that again. And again. I’m 77, so I know those times quite intimately.
Thank you Susan. 76 here, grew up in NYC, took the subway in to see the folk singers in Washington Square while in high school, and went to NYU...yes you and I know those times quite intimately and how much our generation accomplished, too, in getting the rights for women and other groups, some of which are now being threatened.
Fascinating article, need to and will read Suze’s book… the article reminds me that men, the behavior of most/all men of the 60s is what gave rise to the 70s Women’s Movement. I remember when I came awake and alive. The 60s were my intro to music decade
I enjoyed the movie, also frustrated by the Sylvie character, felt cheated by the Joan character. Now I know why. Timothee did a great job as Bob and am going back to reread your article. Thanks for sharing it all. Will there be a part 2?
Thank you!!
Maybe a part two…..? I’ve considered it.
Although I’ve gotten distracted by the hearings, which are making me crazy!!!
This is great, Susan - it nails my conflicting responses to the movie: I loved it because of the music, and I’m glad the music is front and center. I thought I’d hate the movie because of the way the women were misused as narrative devices (that felt obvious after seeing the trailer), but I decided to go with the emotional flow when in the theater - and was surprised by how much the music evoked my father, who loved Dylan’s music and played it all the time when I was a kid. “Boots of Spanish Leather” was a particular favorite of his.
But even feeling exhilarated in the theater, I knew the Sylvie character was sheer invention. All the scenes with Elle Fanning, especially the bullshit one of her hopping the motorcycle to Newport (that’s when I chose to take a restroom break, but still saw too much of the eye-rolling goodbye at the ferry) were thin, my disbelief no longer suspended.
This movie also made me think of Cameron Crowe’s “Almost Famous,” in which the fictionalized groupies of the ‘70s at least get more of a voice. I am very tired of the male genius trope. Mangold’s movie would have been much better if he really had showed the sexism underpinning Dylan’s story. It’s possible to feel many things about art and an artist, and the reality is they aren’t heroes.
A lot of people on the Dylan fan page were angry with me, and a frequent complaint was “this was a movie about Dylan, not Suze Rotolo”! The don’t seem to realize that “she” WAS in it even if not the main character, and it would have been pretty easy to depict her more accurately. They got Pete Seeger pretty well, didn’t they? The sexism of the times, too, could have been alluded to. It didn’t have to be the central focus of the movie in order to be part of the “texture” of the times. A truly great director could have made it happen. That said, I also loved the movie!! The music totally!! Chalomet was brilliant, not just the singing, but he captured the push/pull of Dylan’s sweetness and nastiness really well. And Norton—terrific.
It’s said that we’ll know equality has arrived when a mediocre woman can do just as well as a mediocre man. That will be a start, but when will a self-obsessed female genius and world-class user get the same adulation as Dylan (to which I contribute in my fashion)?
Answer: probably, never.
Dylan was and is a ferocious self-promoter. People like him trim and adjust everything all the time. If something is missing, he didn't want it there.
I agree. Without saying exactly those words, I tried to suggest that he chose the portrait of Suze that made him look the way he wanted to be seen. Hope that came across!
Well, almost all men are assholes, especially probably male artists, but then most women aren’t the saints we might wish they were either . . . except for mine. She’s only practically perfect probably, but she IS a saint to my sometimes jerk. I can’t help it if I’m lucky.
Your wife/partner is lucky too. You know, I don’t really think all men are assholes. I don’t even think Dylan was an asshole. Certainly not compared to the current crop of assholes!! If I had to tell my story of Dylan (rather than revive Suze), It would probably surprise a lot of people who read this piece.
I’d love to read your story of Dylan, Susan, as I loved this piece about Suze, a truly fascinating person.
Thank you!
For what it's worth, Susan, here's what I wrote about "A Complete Unknown."
Me and Bobby Z go way back. You can read about that too if you'd like.
https://themjkxn.substack.com/p/remember-me
I love that duet!!! It might be my favorite.
PS: I just ordered Suze's memoir for my birthday this month that my bride can give me after she first rolls her beautiful blue eyes!
Fascinating and convincing, Susan. I wish this piece were longer (something I rarely say). I haven’t read Suze’s book, only interviews, yet it’s striking how affectionately both she and Joan speak of Bob—a childlike and oddly endearing asshole. Having rewatched Don’t Look Back a few days ago, I can well believe he threw tantrums with women, yet he had an extraordinary power to attract and keep (for a while) women of substance. I am writing my own very different essay now, a personal take, and will link to yours.
As I said in a couple of other comments, I also wish I could have gone longer. There’s so much more to say about the times, about “those” guys, about my generation of women (I think you’re a little younger, but I may be wrong. I’m 77.) I look forward to yours, and will link to it when it’s published.
I am 75 and my piece , like Binnie’s, is a personal take. Substack could fill a Dylan category.
I loved your piece! I hope you know—you must know—what an amazing writer you are.
I don’t even use substack, but I had to comment. I’m a younger Dylan fan, and this piece helped me to put words to some of the reservations that I had about A Complete Unknown and Bob Dylan himself. I’m a woman and consider myself a feminist, and so the cult of male genius has always annoyed me. This piece is the perfect antithesis to those ideas. Thank you, Susan!!
You’re welcome. I love connecting to younger generations of feminists. Hope you’ll subscribe and stick around for more.
I will absolutely be subscribing. And don’t mind me accidentally commenting twice— still figuring out how to use substack! 😂
Auden gives the verdict, widely applicable, certainly in Dylan's case:
Time that is intolerant
Of the brave and innocent,
And indifferent in a week
To a beautiful physique,
Worships language and forgives
Everyone by whom it lives,
Pardons cowardice, conceit,
Lays its honors at their feet.
A very well-written post, thank you.
Reading this quoted description:
“Bob was charismatic; he was a beacon, a lighthouse. He was also a black hole. He required committed backup and protection I was unable to provide consistently, probably because I needed them myself. I loved him, but I was not able to abdicate my life totally for the music world he lived within.”
I thought of this powerful essay by a woman who had been engaged to David Foster Wallace and also has interesting things to say about being involved with a man who is egotistical and artistically successful: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/gale-walden/diary
"He ended up being a surprise. He was wicked funny, for one thing. He was someone I could talk to for hours, and through the years, in different houses, in different states, we did just that. On the phone late at night, he’d say, ‘My ear is getting hot,’ and I knew what he meant because my ear too, pressed against the phone, would be slightly warm and red. I don’t remember exactly what we talked about, just that it was never boring. My big fear in life, at that time, was being bored. Later I would learn that there are worse things to fear."
I wish that I’d had the space to discuss the vexing charm of these kind of guys. I was in love with someone like that myself—although not famous, he embodied the humor, rebelliousness, unexpected sweetness, and not unexpected egotism of the famous guys who he emulated. And he was never boring!! There’s so much to say that I didn’t say, given the constraints of a stack. (I’ve found that not that many people have the patience for long stacks.) I’m glad you did!!
I have to leave another comment after reading all of these remarks I live those errors I graduated from Colorado University in Boulder in 1962. I had mentioned earlier that I lived these years. I dated too many men because we dated back then that were very much like him. A couple of them went on to be really famous not in the arts per se but in other areas, I do think when we look back on those times and write about them, we are affected by what we believe and feel now as women I was a young naïve coed. I liked the boys . An earlier response as I said, I’ve seen this movie twice and I don’t mind the way they did the women it was about Bob Dylan. I am interested in learning more about him and his relationships but I can certainly remember the type of man. I love the movie and nothing is perfect, but I think it was generally portrayed well and Timothée Chalamet became Bob Dylan in my mind. I’m gonna go see it again.
Don’t get me wrong—I was totally into the boys, too. And I loved the movie. Chalamet was great, even though so much cuter than Dylan was. I just believe in always bringing out in the open what has been submerged.
Thank you for this post! I bought Suze's book and started reading it halfway through your piece. It's incredible!
Great to hear this. I’d love to feel I contributed to more people reading that book.